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Talk:Time Regression
Deletion For those of you don't understand, this is simply an exaggeration of the Sharingan's ability to predict movements. Another reason why none of this should be considered anime material...--Cerez365™ 17:52, March 2, 2012 (UTC) That's not how Sharingan predicts moves.Patsoumas1995 (talk) 18:01, March 2, 2012 (UTC) :And why is Madara Uchiha listed as a user only in the anime, when it's a game technique ? Is this even a valid technique ? --speysider (talk) 18:02, March 2, 2012 (UTC) "none of this should be considered anime material" It's your personal opinion, everything has already been decided with the community as you know here -> Talk:Naruto_Shippūden:_Ultimate_Ninja_Storm_Generations, a debate that has lasted long enough already. "this is simply an exaggeration of the Sharingan's ability to predict movements." It is clearly show that the EMS is used before this technique, the symbol in Madara's eye turning with a particular sound, something not necessary for reading moves as seen with Sasuke﻿ vs Naruto in the 1st part. Light-Revan (talk) 18:07, March 2, 2012 (UTC) How about adding in trivia that this may not be a technique? Then both sides wil be happy I think.Patsoumas1995 (talk) 18:12, March 2, 2012 (UTC) I'm guessing the way it seemed like was something like this (I don't watch the anime) but I'm doubting he has the ability to change the past. Also, can we change some of those pics used as it seems like he blocked it first and then just moved later. Joshbl56 18:13, March 2, 2012 (UTC) :Because it is a technique, for the reasons given above. It just seems bothers some people because it seems too strong or something like this. :"I'm guessing the way it seemed like was something like this", not really, the time and the sound are backward, here the link of the battle, between 3:14 and 3:28 for the technique -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERWyXkofjcwLight-Revan (talk) 18:17, March 2, 2012 (UTC) ::So... It seems like his eyes let him see through the dust and see senju but I kind of lost track from there. The root threw a shuriken, he blocked it but then it reversed and the dust cleared.... Yeah, I'm out on this one. Good luck with finding the answer. Joshbl56 18:36, March 2, 2012 (UTC) Please to excuse me... So because he's using the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, he's lost the ability to use any of the Sharingan abilities? It's not an entirely different dojutsu it's just a new form.--Cerez365™ 18:50, March 2, 2012 (UTC) :"It's not an entirely different dojutsu it's just a new form" It's an entirely different technique. Madara doesn't predict anything, the time and the sound are clearly backward when he used it. The symbol in Madara's eye turns and a particular sound is played. Also, like Joshbl56 said, the dust is here before and not after the technique, seems to affect only living beings and techniques, but not the natural environment. (talk) 19:05, March 2, 2012 (UTC) No problem Cerez. If it was something like predicting movement, the symbol in Madara's eye would not turn, the particular sound would not play, and the time and the sound would not be backwards. And, as mentioned by Joshbl56 and the anon, the dust would be here before and after. Light-Revan (talk) 19:13, March 2, 2012 (UTC) I would like to point out that in many anime sequences of that video game, several liberties were taken. See Jiraiya's tale for example. I agree that this seems like an exaggeration of the Sharingan's predictive ability. A poor stylistic choice by the animators. I'm not denying the possibility that such an ability can exist in the Naruto world, but between that and an animator's poor judgement, I think poor judgement is infinitely more likely. Omnibender - Talk - 21:00, March 2, 2012 (UTC) In reply to your comments at my talk page, Light-Revan. You have a problem with "seem"? Ok, then I change my statement to "This is an exaggeration of the Sharingan's predictive ability". On them taking liberties with the scene. It is one thing to create something completely different and disconnected from the manga canon to allow the gap between manga and anime to grow. It is a completely different one to add or change something from the manga canon, this wasn't a small change like the scene of Tobi leaving to Amegakure in this week's episode that has no impact or weight on the plot, it only adds a layer, its potential to be against anything shown in the manga is minimal. Zero-Tails is a poor argument because the movies always have a plot that has nothing to do with the manga's plot. They always deal with things that only exist in the movies. On the prediction stuff: I ask you the same about the shuriken. It time was turned back, wouldn't Madara simply know it even better, and block it in a way he's not throw back by the impact, or maybe dodge it entirely? Isn't it less convoluted for Hashirama to have simply changed his mind in a split-second about how to attack Madara, after making an initial movement that Madara could use his Sharingan to predict following attacks? Or if you want something more complex, for Hashirama to anticipate Madara would use the Sharingan to predict his attack, and feint a movement that would give him a "false prediction" and try catching him off-guard? The Sharigan doesn't predict things simply just by "muscle tension", it does so by detecting the details of the movement, of what comes before the movement. Seeing a "flexing branch" could give him an equally good idea on how it would swing or move. Even the basic Sharingan spin sometimes when it does something, for example, casting genjutsu. MS on the other hand, the designs were only ever seen moving either when it's changing from the basic tomoe to it, they were never seen spinning when a technique is activated. At most, we see it dilating from the centre, as if "opening" or "zooming in/out", but never spinning. Sounds when there's a zooming in on a Shanringan is extremely common, usually done for dramatic effect, as it was done in this case. The sound of the clash between the gunbai and the shuriken could just as easily be there and be "rewound" for stylistic reasons, and the music did not play backwards. And even if it did, it could have been for the same stylistic reasons. Dust is there in both cases. When Hashirama uses the branches to attack with the swords, the dust is there, it simply clears faster because this is now "real time" instead of "Sharingan fast-tracking perception time". The dust is not a good argument because it changes direction when it shouldn't. When the dust cloud first comes from Kurama's attack it comes from Madara's right side, Kurama being to his right. When Hashirama has the branches use the swords, the dust cloud is coming from Madara's left side, as if Kurama were to his left, as if he and Hashirama had exchanged positions. Omnibender - Talk - 02:13, March 3, 2012 (UTC) :"It is one thing to create something completely different and disconnected from the manga canon to allow the gap between manga and anime to grow. It is a completely different one to add or change something from the manga canon" From the manga canon? But it concerns the anime canon, not the paper manga canon from Kishimoto. :"Zero-Tails is a poor argument because the movies always have a plot that has nothing to do with the manga's plot." You want something in the anime directly? Utakata for example, who had not met Naruto prior the Fourth Shinobi World War in the manga's plot, but met him before in the anime's plot. Without contradiction in the anime, fillers always add something canon in the anime, like Temari vs Tenten for example, or Raiga Kurosuki, wielders of one of the seven legendary sword of the Mist, Kiba, first introduced in the anime ironically. :"It time was turned back, wouldn't Madara simply know it even better, and block it in a way he's not throw back by the impact, or maybe dodge it entirely?" Like I said on your talk page, the shuriken launched by Hashirama's Mokuton doesn't reappear when the time return to normal. If it was something like predicting movement, the shuriken should be there again when the time return to normal. Hashirama and all those affected by the technique may simply be aware of it and don't do the same thing when they know that Madara knows it too. :"false prediction" Where did you see that the Sharingan can make false prediction? It is seen anywhere, not even on the Sharingan page itself. :"it does so by detecting the details of the movement, of what comes before the movement." It is false, read the Sharingan page. The Sharingan ability to predict movements is only from the slightest muscle tension of an attacker, something that Hashirama's Mokuton don't possess. :"Even the basic Sharingan spin sometimes when it does something, for example, casting genjutsu" Yes, the Sharingan can spin when it "cast a jutsu", but never when it predicts movement. Here, it spin, therefore, it is not a movement prediction. :"The dust is not a good argument because it changes direction when it shouldn't" It shouldn't? Have you yourself supervise this sequence to be so sure of that? It could be for lots of reason, like the wind changing direction, something common. Light-Revan (talk) 16:15, March 7, 2012 (UTC) :Oh man I hope I reply correctly. saw the sequence like this. I did not see it as a new jutsu. Notice that his eyes begin to glow while looking at the Hokage, his eyes than widen in shock (as if he see's something we do not) before defending the projectile. This action throws him back and loosens his grip on the fan. :What the animators did was show you what happened first in real time, they then take you back to show you what happened from the eyes of Madara himself(what he saw). His eyes begin to spin because as i understand it, its a way to let the audience know that the sharingan is about to do something. With the Sharingan he was able to see the Hokages technique through the smoke (the realization of which caused his eyes to widen) and was able to react to it by defending against the projectile. :Now after the "rewinding" effect he is shown landing and retrieving the fan that was knocked loose from his hand. Though it looked as if he had went back in time, the battle continues right after he defends the initial projectile. No time control, just a bit of creativity by the animators. Had the animation been shown without the rewind effect it would happen in this order. :1: Madaras eyes begin to glow 2: He sees the Hokage 3: Camera pans out to show the Hokages technique (weapons being utilized by branches) 4: Branch throws projectile 5: Madaras eyes widen 6: Madara defends against projectile 7: Madara lands and continues to defend against blows. :It was just a creative way of showing you one of the sharingans ability. But i could be wrong, lol. :I apologize for any misspellings or grammatical errors. and if i messed up my attempt at a reply I'm double sorry. Man-o-Vertigo (talk) 16:30, March 15, 2012 (UTC) @Light-Revan What I said about anime filler and what they did to the game was to show that the level of change is different. The OVA messed with something that should not have been messed with just for the messing or entertaining, because that is a very plot relevant moment that can create plot holes. Utakata's addition to the anime like that does create a plot hole in the anime if Naruto doesn't recognise him when the anime catches up to where the manga is now. Tenten and Temari's fight is also a very poor example of changing stuff because when that happened in the anime, manga was already way past that, so all they did was create a fight showcasing the abilities they had already displayed, they didn't create a new ability. What they did was the equivalent of hypothetically having Danzō use Wind Release in a filler, plotwise before the anime catches up to the manga portion where he does use Wind Release for the first time, but out-of-universe and chronologically after he does so in the manga. Raiga and his skills, despite being anime filler, are unquestionably clear in their nature. If what Madara did in that OVA was as clearly a time rewinding technique, this discussion wouldn't be happening, nor would people in Naruto boards and forums discuss its nature as well. You didn't answer my question: if this was a time reversal, why didn't the shuriken reappear being thrown as well? If time was simply turned back, shuriken should be there as well, my explanation of why the shuriken didn't reappear can logically explain that, yours can't. Do you seriously think that Sharigan can only predict movements by muscle tension? You're cheery-picking. That's called a physical cue, which is what the Shanrigan uses. Muscle tension is merely an example. As I said before, if a Sharingan sees a branch of a tree controlled by Wood Release twist and flex, don't you think that the tension in that can be read as well? Sharigan can also see chakra, which Wood Release certainly has. Sharingan can also perceive fast-moving objects. Do you think that thrown kunai and shuriken display muscle tension? That's the physical cue I talked about. What I meant by Sharingan spinning is that the regular Sharingan spins when casting techniques, the closest thing Mangekyō Sharingan have ever done to spinning is when the user activates it from the base Sharingan, when the Sharingan design changes to the MS design, I mentioned MS not spinning before, but again, you simply cheery-picked and took my argument out of context. I'm sure about the dust, I watched that sequence many times, and the direction to which the dust goes changes when it shouldn't, and there were no wind sound effects either. Omnibender - Talk - 15:57, March 17, 2012 (UTC) After paying more attention to the scene, I came to the conclusion that it's not a new power. After the "rewind sequence" ends, we see Madara landing after the Shuriken attack, so it was just showing us in a different way how Madara saw & predicted the attack.Patsoumas1995 (talk) 21:24, April 7, 2012 (UTC)